{"id":11282,"date":"2020-10-30T21:09:06","date_gmt":"2020-10-31T01:09:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/?post_type=podcasts&#038;p=11282"},"modified":"2023-01-03T10:50:31","modified_gmt":"2023-01-03T15:50:31","slug":"setting-rules-prosperous-financial-future","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/resource-center\/podcasts\/setting-rules-prosperous-financial-future\/","title":{"rendered":"Setting the Rules for a Prosperous Financial Future"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<div class=\"wp-block-dailypay-bg-image undefined custom-content__hero\" style=\"background-image:url(\/wp-content\/uploads\/bg-stripes-1.svg);background-position:center center;background-color:#FAD6C0;background-size:cover\" data-version=\"b8da\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-dailypay-wrap undefined wrap mrgTop-40 mrgBtm-40 padH-40 align-left\" data-version=\"4b95\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-9d6595d7 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<iframe allow=\"autoplay *; encrypted-media *; fullscreen *\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"175\" style=\"width:100%;max-width:660px;overflow:hidden;background:transparent;\" sandbox=\"allow-forms allow-popups allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-storage-access-by-user-activation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation\" src=\"https:\/\/embed.podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/setting-the-rules-for-a-prosperous-financial-future\/id1524098995?i=1000496696677\"><\/iframe>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column label-black is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<h2 class=\"has-text-color wp-block-heading\" style=\"color:#000000\">Do you want to be notified of upcoming episodes? Want to be reminded to listen to our podcast when it\u2019s live? Leave your email below!<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<!--[if lte IE 8]><script charset=\"utf-8\" type=\"text\/javascript\" src=\"\/\/js.hsforms.net\/forms\/v2-legacy.js\"><\/script><![endif]--><script charset=\"utf-8\" type=\"text\/javascript\" src=\"\/\/js.hsforms.net\/forms\/v2.js\"><\/script><script>hbspt.forms.create({portalId: \"3412011\",formId: \"71d8f2a0-adab-4d22-a79c-59b188af3bee\"});<\/script>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-color\" style=\"color:#000000\">Prefer to listen to our podcast on other platforms? Click on your preference below to subscribe. New podcasts will be added automatically to your library.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns podcasts-images is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-9d6595d7 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-source-by-dailypay\/id1524098995\"><img fetchpriority=\"high\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1000\" height=\"262\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/Apple-Podcast-Button.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-5085\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/Apple-Podcast-Button.png 1000w, https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/Apple-Podcast-Button-500x131.png 500w, https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/Apple-Podcast-Button-768x201.png 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1000px) 100vw, 1000px\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5g39nTn6gyPtQ39hTRGdPW?si=jL9e-EMaQz-H04av-FYMlw \"><img decoding=\"async\" width=\"687\" height=\"262\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/Spotify-Button.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-5083\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/Spotify-Button.png 687w, https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/Spotify-Button-500x191.png 500w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 687px) 100vw, 687px\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGUtc291cmNlLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz\"><img decoding=\"async\" width=\"1440\" height=\"533\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/google-podcasts-1440x533.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-5084\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/google-podcasts-1440x533.png 1440w, https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/google-podcasts-500x185.png 500w, https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/google-podcasts-768x284.png 768w, https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/google-podcasts-1536x569.png 1536w, https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/google-podcasts.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1440px) 100vw, 1440px\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-dailypay-wrap undefined wrap mrgTop-40 mrgBtm-40 padH-40 align-left\" data-version=\"4b95\">\n<p><strong>Episode Description:<\/strong> Professor Jason Fichtner, a fellow at the Bipartisan Policy Center, and a Johns Hopkins senior lecturer, explains the thought processes of how people interact with money and how they can be changed to help people become more financially stable. He will discuss how our ability to be more financially aware through technology can aid in these decisions we make about money, and how to frame the decision-making process surrounding the amounts we have versus the amounts we need.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-dailypay-bg-image undefined custom-content__guests\" style=\"background-image:url(\/wp-content\/uploads\/bg-blob-4.svg);background-position:center center;background-color:#50c074;background-size:cover\" data-version=\"b8da\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-dailypay-wrap undefined wrap mrgTop-40 mrgBtm-40 padH-40 align-left\" data-version=\"4b95\">\n<h2 class=\"has-text-color wp-block-heading\" style=\"color:#FFFFFF\">About Our Speakers<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-9d6595d7 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center speaker--25 is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large speaker__image\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"250\" height=\"259\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/podcasts-fichtner.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11302\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column bio--75 is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Jason Fichtner is a fellow at the Bipartisan Policy Center, and is a Senior Lecturer and an Associate Director of the Master of International Economics and Finance program at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, also known as SAIS, in Washington D.C.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Professor Fichtner served in several positions at the Social Security Administration, including as Deputy Commissioner of Social Security (acting), Chief Economist, and Associate Commissioner for Retirement Policy. He also served as senior economist with the Joint Economic Committee of the US Congress. Previously, he also was a senior research fellow at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University.&nbsp;<br><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Fichtner\u2019s research focuses on Social Security, federal tax policy, federal budget policy, retirement security, and policy proposals to increase saving and investment.<br><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div style=\"height:50px\" aria-hidden=\"true\" class=\"wp-block-spacer\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-9d6595d7 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center speaker--25 is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large speaker__image\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"250\" height=\"250\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/podcasts-michael-baer.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11303\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/podcasts-michael-baer.png 250w, https:\/\/www.dailypay.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/podcasts-michael-baer-150x150.png 150w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 250px) 100vw, 250px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column bio--75 is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Michael Baer is the host and executive producer of The Source podcast. Michael previously oversaw domestic and international payroll news and analysis at Bloomberg Tax, previously BNA.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In a career spanning three decades, Michael transformed the role of managing editor, becoming an information services leader who managed every aspect of world-class global products and platforms, while continuously increasing revenue and achieving market-best customer satisfaction. He directed a team of editors and writers who were charged with translating complicated tax and labor laws into English so non-lawyers could easily understand and apply them, and was integral in organizing and placing that content on easy-to-access web platforms, resulting in the highest net promoter scores the company had seen for any of their offerings.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael has been a frequent public speaker for conferences and webinars, and now is the host of The Source, sponsored by DailyPay. Michael joined the DailyPay team in 2019.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-9d6595d7 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center speaker--25 is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column bio--75 is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-dailypay-wrap undefined wrap mrgTop-40 mrgBtm-40 padH-40 align-left custom-content__learn\" data-version=\"4b95\">\n<h2 class=\"has-text-color wp-block-heading\" style=\"color:#4780EA\">In this podcast you will learn about\u2026<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>How new tools, which provide more personal financial awareness, can positively impact financial behavior<\/li><li>The way to frame the financial decision-making process around what we have vs. what we need<\/li><li>The key to building savings, regardless of income or financial situation<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<span class=\"wp-block-dailypay-btn\"><a href=\"#\" class=\"btn btn-primary\">SUBSCRIBE<\/a><\/span>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-dailypay-bg-image undefined\" style=\"background-image:;background-position:center center;background-color:#F6F6F6;background-size:cover\" data-version=\"b8da\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-dailypay-wrap undefined wrap mrgTop-40 mrgBtm-40 padH-40 align-left read-more--collapsed\" data-version=\"4b95\">\n<p><strong>About this podcast and transcript:<\/strong><br><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Welcome to The Source, by DailyPay, the definitive destination for timely and informative regulatory updates and issues in the on-demand pay industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>DailyPay is the recognized gold standard for providing the daily pay benefit and pay experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This material is for general information only and the views expressed herein reflect only the views of the participants.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This program should be considered marketing material and should not be relied on as legal, tax, accounting, or regulatory advice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And now, let\u2019s welcome our host, Michael Baer.<br><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hello everyone, and welcome to The Source. The Source is\nsponsored by DailyPay and it provides insights into active and upcoming\nlegislation impacting the on-demand pay industry. And with special guests, we\nhelp clarify issues surrounding early access to pay in the pay experience. And\ntoday I have the pleasure of talking with Professor Jason Fichtner. Jason\nFichtner is a fellow at the Bipartisan Policy Center and is a senior lecturer\nand an associate director of the Master of International Economics and Finance\nProgram at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, also\nknown as SAIS in Washington, DC.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Professor Fichtner served in several positions at the\nSocial Security Administration, including as acting deputy commissioner of\nsocial security, chief economist, and associate commissioner for retirement\npolicy. And he also served as senior economist with the Joint Economic\nCommittee of the US Congress. Previously, he was a senior research fellow at\nthe Mercatus Center at George Mason University. Professor Fichtner&#8217;s research\nfocuses on naturally, social security and federal tax policy, federal budget\npolicy, retirement security, and policy proposals to increase saving and\ninvestment. And today he is here to talk about setting the rules for a\nprosperous financial future. Welcome, Professor Fichtner.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thanks for inviting me, Mike. It&#8217;s a pleasure to be here\ntoday.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, Jason, you have been, let&#8217;s just say studying and\nwriting about how people interact with money and it&#8217;s a behavior that we can\nliterally train the brain on in order to secure a better financial future. What\nled you to start thinking about applying behavioral insights to financial\nsecurity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I was trained as a classical economist, that everyone is a\nrational actor. So if they have full information, they&#8217;ll make rational\ndecisions. But when I was at the Social Security Administration, I was the\nprincipal deputy commissioner and the chief economist. We started noticing that\nhow we were framing information was potentially affecting retirement claiming\ndecisions. So for example, the agency, when talking about the ID and still\ndoes, of the early eligibility age, if you think about social security\nretirement, most people think about retirement at age 65. They retire from\ntheir work. They get a gold watch and they go have their golden years in\nretirement.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the agency was talking about full retirement age,\nearly eligibility age. Well, what does full retirement mean? And if you tell\nsomeone they can retire early, they don&#8217;t even think about the idea that they\nmight get a reduced benefit. And that&#8217;s actually how Social Security\nAdministration and the benefits are designed. You get an early benefit if you\nclaim early, it&#8217;s a reduced benefit. In fact, if you claim at 62, the benefit\ncan be reduced over 25%. Now, technically, if you live to the average age, it&#8217;s\nactually really fair, but for those who live longer, they actually come out\nshort and actually that reduced monthly benefit can harm them in retirement\nwhen they need it most in their 80s or 90s.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And what the agency was doing was inadvertently helping\npeople claim or pushing them to claim, nudging them to claim if you will,\nearly. And right now about 65% of people who claim social security benefits do\nso before their full retirement age, which right now is age 66 and going up to\nage 67. And that can have a very significant impact. When someone would walk\ninto the Social Security Administration and talks to a claim representative,\nthey would go in at say age 62 and they would ask the claims rep, &#8220;When\nshould I take social security benefits?&#8221; And the claims rep would say,\n&#8220;Well, let&#8217;s do what&#8217;s called the break even analysis. If you claim at age\n62, you will get benefits now as opposed to waiting until 66, that&#8217;s four more\nyears you&#8217;ll get benefits.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They&#8217;re reduced, but you&#8217;ll be ahead for the next 14\nyears.&#8221; And by telling somebody they&#8217;ll be ahead for 14 years, people are\nlike, &#8220;That&#8217;s great. I&#8217;m going ahead. Sign me up today at age 62.&#8221;\nWhat the agency didn&#8217;t tell them is that they live for 14 more years and beyond\nthat, at that beyond point, they&#8217;re then behind for the rest of their life.\nThat framing makes a huge difference also showing them the benefits of delayed\nclaiming. So for example, if someone was supposed to get a $1,000 a month by\nwaiting until age 66 to retire, if they retired at age 62 or claimed benefits\nat 62, that amounts to about $730. That&#8217;s a major reduction from 1,000 to under\n730. But if they delayed even to age 70, that amount goes to almost $1,300.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So when we started showing them the numbers are different\non a monthly basis, they started changing their behavior. And that&#8217;s when I\nrealized that the behavioral insights, the framing made a difference. And we\nstarted changing the way we were talking to the beneficiaries, to the public.\nWe got rid of the breakeven analysis at social security when I was there. And\nnow we&#8217;re trying to do efforts to get rid of the nomenclature. We&#8217;re trying to\nget rid of talking about early eligibility age, and instead, maybe talking\nabout minimum benefit age and maximum benefit age so that people will have a\ndiscussion about what the numbers are in between and what&#8217;s actually best for\nthem.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s super interesting because this kind of analysis, we\ncan apply in general to other circumstances, right? Just generally in our\nfinancial futures, what kind of design tools or nudges can we use to help\npeople save more or consume better, or just spend more responsibly?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s a great question, Mike. And a couple of things pop\nin mind. One is nudges and another one is something called mental accounting.\nAnd I think I&#8217;ll take mental accounting first and then we&#8217;ll go into nudges. So\nmental accounting, when you think about people, again, being trained as a\nneoclassical economist, the idea of the rational actor. To an economist, money\nis fungible. If I give you a dollar, Mike, and say, &#8220;This dollar can only\nbe spent on lunch,&#8221; you might say, &#8220;Great, I have this now\ndollar,&#8221; but you had already assumed you were going to spend five of your\nown dollars on lunch and you&#8217;re still going to do it. Now you have this extra\ndollar I gave you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You could put that dollar towards the five and spend six,\nor you could say, &#8220;I&#8217;m still going to spend five and I&#8217;ll take Jason&#8217;s\ndollar, put it in that five, take that one dollar out of the five you had and go\nspend it on something else. That&#8217;s the fungibility of money. And that&#8217;s how an\neconomist says people are rational actors. But people don&#8217;t behave that way in\nreality. They think of things as buckets. This is the mental accounting. People\nthink about having a bucket for retirement, a bucket for entertainment, a\nbucket for travel, a bucket for utilities. And if we start showing people and\nhelping them understand that they think in buckets, we could set up savings\nplans and consumption plans along those buckets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So now when people start getting their paycheck, they can\nstart putting money aside and actually from a mental accounting standpoint,\nsay, &#8220;I&#8217;m going to put 10% of my paycheck towards utilities. 10% towards\nsavings. 10% towards travel. 10% towards entertainment. And even though the\nmoney could still be in one account, there is a mental accounting, a picture\nthat&#8217;s shown on the internet or through an app and DailyPay can do this and\nsay, &#8220;Here&#8217;s how much you&#8217;ve allocated or budgeted towards each category.\nAnd once you get to a certain level, then you can spend that down.&#8221; And\nthat&#8217;s mental accounting. And that&#8217;s how people think. And that&#8217;s just\ndesigning a tool. That&#8217;s not changing any legislation. It&#8217;s not changing\nanything about mandates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s just saying, &#8220;We&#8217;re going to help you frame\nsomething differently to think about how you spend your money so you can do a\nbetter job saving and spending.&#8221; And that&#8217;s the mental accounting. And\nthen we can also go into nudges, and nudges are really, really helpful when\nthey&#8230; nudge people do things they want to do anyway. So most people will tell\nyou they do want to save. They want to save for a rainy day. They want to save\nfor retirement. They want to save for a house. They want to save. But they\nmight find it difficult. And so we try to help them by nudging. And the nudge\ncould be for example, an automatic enrollment or a default. So we can\nautomatically enroll you into a savings plan or retirement plan.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, the difference between a nudge and a mandate, a\nmandate forces you to do it, a nudge defaults you in but gives you the option\nof saying no. And what the research has shown is if you go to somebody and say,\n&#8220;Would you like to sign up for retirement plan today? Pick yes or\nno.&#8221; A lot of folks will say no even if they want to because they&#8217;re not\nsure about their budget constraint. But if you go to them and say, &#8220;Hey,\nwe have now opted you into this retirement plan. If you want out, just tell\nus.&#8221; A lot of folks will say, &#8220;Wow, I&#8217;m already in it. I&#8217;ll give it a\ntry.&#8221; And that helps increase savings. And that&#8217;s where nudges are very,\nvery powerful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And again, thinking about how this works for mental\naccounting, you can see where something like DailyPay is very helpful with\ntheir ability to have, the way they said, you can have money going from your\npaycheck into these mental buckets to help you save for retirement or save for\nutilities, save for rent, save for a rainy day, or save up an amount of money\nwhen you hit a level that then you can go out and spend. This is how you can\nuse behavioral insights to help people save and also spend more responsibly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think what you&#8217;re hitting on here is that we got to\nstart thinking like accountants. And when we have that extra dollar that comes\nin, we have to say, &#8220;Okay, so where is it going to be allocated to?&#8221;\nMy wife and I have been training ourselves to do that in our household\nbudgeting. And it&#8217;s a challenge, but we are really starting to think like, this\nis our accounting. It&#8217;s all our stuff and it all has to be allocated somewhere.\nBut it&#8217;s very interesting. I think you pointed out the psychology of all this\nand that you also mentioned briefly this automatic enrollment in 401(k) plans.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And for many, there seems to be a natural inclination\nagainst having anything automatically done, especially with finances. And I\njust was thinking, how does one overcome this tendency to just resist these\ntypes of applications that really are more beneficial?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s a great question, Mike. And it&#8217;s very important to\nthink about this. And I think there&#8217;s some resistance to automatic enrollments\non the finance side because it&#8217;s people&#8217;s money. They might need it for\nsomething else. The difference I would point out between a nudge again, and a\nmandate is on the nudge, we can auto enroll somebody, but we do make it easy\nfor them to get out. We say, we&#8217;re going to put you into this plan. We&#8217;re going\nto sign you up for a savings plan. We&#8217;re going to sign up so that part of your\npaycheck goes for rainy day account. We&#8217;re just going to do this automatically,\nbut you have the right. And it&#8217;s very easy to say, &#8220;No, I don&#8217;t want to do\nthat.&#8221; That&#8217;s sort of making the barrier a little bit easier to overcome\nwhen you auto enroll or default somebody in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think that&#8217;s what we, when I&#8217;ve talked with\nlegislatures and policy makers who are looking at ways to increase savings,\nwe&#8217;ve talked about our enrollment in defaults as a way to help people overcome\nthat initial barrier of getting into a system. That initial reluctance by\nsaying, it&#8217;s not mandatory. There&#8217;s a way to get out. It&#8217;s very simple, just\nsay no. But it&#8217;s that barrier of having to actively choose yes or no that\nbecomes very hard for people. It becomes very complex. They might get scared.\nThey might get reluctant and that&#8217;s very important. There&#8217;s issues with\nprocrastination. We&#8217;ve seen, behaviorally speaking, it&#8217;s very interesting,\npeople who are procrastinators, for example, imagine you start a new job and\nthey say, You&#8217;ve got 30 days from the day you start to sign up for retirement\nplan.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Those that wait until the last day or two to do so end up\nsaving less than those who sign up right away. And it&#8217;s sort of this idea that\npeople who don&#8217;t plan to fail, they fail to plan. And so by helping them set up\na plan and default them in, we can overcome those psychological barriers to\nsavings. And when I mention this to legislatures and again, policymakers, the\nidea of nudging becomes very important. They now get it so long as we maintain\nthe option to make it easy for folks to say, no, they really don&#8217;t want to do\nit. I think that&#8217;s how we can overcome that barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what I&#8217;m hearing from you then is that there is this,\nthat the automatic enrollment is kind of more of a nudge. It&#8217;s not a mandate,\nand there&#8217;s the option to not participate if you don&#8217;t want to. And so that\nmakes it a lot more palatable and easier for us to digest. And like you said,\npeople, oh, well, I&#8217;m already in it, let&#8217;s see how it goes. I can always get\nout of it. And they have that option. So that&#8217;s good. Well, let&#8217;s move on. I&#8217;m\nunderstanding it&#8217;s not just about these cash flows that are going in and out of\nour accounts, it&#8217;s about information. And the financial information that we\nhave about our own personal finances are the monies that we have.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I know, for example, with DailyPay, we may only access our\nearned balance once a week. We may only take something out once a week, but\nwe&#8217;d look at it once or twice a day just to see how this is accumulating, and\nis just that curiosity or can changes like that, the ability to have such\nfinancial awareness, how can that impact financial behavior on a positive way?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s a great insight, Mike. And I think what&#8217;s important\nto realize is that financial information, the ability to see it clearly in a\ncognizant simple way can help you make better informed decisions. So I don&#8217;t\nthink it&#8217;s just a curiosity that people are checking their daily balances maybe\nonce or twice a day. It&#8217;s actually because they&#8217;re concerned. They actually\nwant to do better with their finances. They want to plan better. They want to\nspend better. And then knowing how much money they have on a daily basis can\nhelp them realize whether or not today&#8217;s a day they go out to lunch or pack a\nlunch instead, or go out and buy the extra coffee, or whether they should take\nsome of that pay and save it towards retirement or towards travel, or towards a\nhouse.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so having more information can be better. You don&#8217;t\nwant to overload people and make it so there&#8217;s so much information, they can&#8217;t\ndigest through it. But having it in a simple manner where they can check it daily,\nI think is important for having people make better informed decisions and\nchoices. That&#8217;s a huge advantage. When you think about the idea of, back again,\nI&#8217;m 49 years old. And so when I started saving, I had one of those passbook\nsavings accounts for Christmas where you actually went into the bank, put money\ndown, they give you a passbook and they put in the dot matrix printer and save\nthings out, told you how much your balance was and the interest you earned.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There was no ability to go online or check on your app\nwhat was going on. This is a huge difference now. And now I go, I mean, I go on\ndaily and check my account balances. It&#8217;s easy to pull in through various\napplications now that you can do it on your smartphone. And that makes it\neasier to&#8230; It helps me better manage my money and how I want to spend it and\nhow I save. So I think that&#8217;s very important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that&#8217;s right, exactly. I think it is a big deal. And\nnow we have these technological tools to be able to monitor that. And when I\nthink about my pay, I remember much younger I did some back of the envelope\ncalculations when I first started a job to see what I was going to expect on\npayday. And they weren&#8217;t easy calculations and I didn&#8217;t have all the variations\nthat I needed to really get it accurate. And there are stories, of course, of\nthose videos of those young workers, they&#8217;re new to working and getting paid.\nAnd then when they get that first check, they&#8217;re rather dismayed what they end\nup getting because they knew their gross pay, but not their net.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And tools nowadays, like DailyPay&#8217;s app allows you to see\nup to 100% of what you&#8217;ve earned so far during that cycle. But there still is,\nnow that we have these financial tools, I think that helps people know what\nthey can actually net out at the end of the cycle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, no, you&#8217;re right, Mike. I think one of the thing I\nstill remember, on my first job, I was making hourly wage when I was in high\nschool. And it&#8217;s really easy to do the math when you work 20 hours a week times\nhourly wage, what your take-home pay should be on a gross level. And I remember\nwhen I got my paycheck and I looked at the small number and I&#8217;m like,\n&#8220;What happened?&#8221; And then I saw this line for FICA. I&#8217;m like, &#8220;Who\nis FICA? Why did he take all my money?&#8221; And that&#8217;s the payroll taxes you\npay. And so I think you&#8217;re exactly right that it&#8217;s helped for people to see\nwhat they&#8217;re earning per day on a net basis, because that&#8217;s as economists say,\nyour budget constraint. That&#8217;s what you can spend per day or per pay cycle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And what&#8217;s important too and I think where DailyPay comes\nin to help people and these planning apps is that when we look at poverty, a\nlot of people think that poverty is long-term, that you fall into poverty and\nyou&#8217;re stuck there. But what we find is it&#8217;s actually more episodic, that there\nare income shocks. You have a car repair bill, you need new tires in your car.\nThe muffler breaks down, or the battery breaks down, and you need to have these\npayments. And so all of a sudden you need to come up with $400 or $500 for a\ncar repair and you haven&#8217;t saved for that. And that creates this episodic\ncashflow shock where you&#8217;ve had to put money out that you didn&#8217;t expect to pay\nfor, and you don&#8217;t have the money coming in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so one of the things by having this daily information\nis you can start seeing how much you&#8217;re earning daily and then try to figure\nout where you could bucket it and have planning reminders. And that&#8217;s one of things\nabout the behavioral insights is checklists help, reminders help, just telling\npeople, &#8220;Hey, most people save X amount of their paycheck for savings or X\namount for rainy day. Would you like to put some money in a rainy day\naccount?&#8221; You can say yes and then you can always get it when you need it\nso you&#8217;re not losing the money, but that&#8217;s how these behavioral insights and\ntools can be very helpful for people to help them plan, save, and spend, and\nbudget better and avoid these episodic shocks to poverty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. So true. And onto savings, let&#8217;s look at this\nability to save even during the pandemic when funds are low for many. We just\ndid a poll with the Harris Corporation and somewhere around 70% of the\nrespondents said that they are suffering financially from the pandemic. But you\nmentioned in an interview earlier this year that even for those people that are\nstruggling right now, they can look at being able to save even $350 a year. And\nthey might think that&#8217;s a lost cause now, but the situation can change when the\nfrequency paid becomes daily. Can you fill us in on that behavior?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. It&#8217;s a good insight, Mike. And not to minimize any\nof the challenges people are going through with this pandemic and potential job\nloss or reductions of income. It&#8217;s very serious and I&#8217;m not trying to minimize\nit. But if you tell somebody, &#8220;You need to save $350 a year,&#8221; a lot\nof people right now might say, &#8220;$350, I can&#8217;t do that. There&#8217;s no way.\nThat&#8217;s just too much of a burden. That&#8217;s too much of a barrier. I can&#8217;t save\n$350 a year.&#8221; And framing it that way makes it sound very difficult. But\nif instead you frame it and say, &#8220;Could you save one dollar a day?&#8221;\nYour goal is not now 350 a year, your goal is now one dollar a day. Most people\nsay, &#8220;A dollar a day, sure, I can do that.&#8221; Well, if you do a dollar\na day, then all of a sudden after one year you&#8217;ve got your $350.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And just by changing the framing and making the challenge\nseem less burdensome, getting one dollar a day versus 350 a year, that framing\ncan change behavior. And that&#8217;s how something with DailyPay can work very well\ntoo is you&#8217;re going to show somebody, how about taking a dollar of your\nearnings today and putting it into a rainy day fund, a savings account. Something\nyou can either save for retirement or save for a rainy day, or say for\nconsumption, but just do a challenge of one dollar a day. I think that framing\ncan be very helpful and that&#8217;s where something like DailyPay can really help\npeople make a difference in their financial lives and security.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think we need more people like you out there telling us\nthat we can do it. We could save this dollar a day. I understand identifying\ncertain incentives can create the right behaviors regarding money. So I&#8217;m\nstruck by the fact though that there are a lot of disincentives and\nrestrictions taking place right now, for example, in the payday loan area, the\npredatory payday loans, but the demand for them remains somewhat high. So this\npredatory business model can continue albeit in a more diminished capacity. As\nan economist, what are the factors currently governing the demand for payday\nloans and what remains to drop and how can it be overcome?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the main draw of things like payday lenders or car\ntitle loans are ease of access. There are people who really need the money and\nthey see payday lenders or the ability to borrow based on their car title as\neasy access to cash. And don&#8217;t get me wrong. I&#8217;m not saying we should outlaw\npayday lenders. They do serve a legitimate purpose, but it bothers me because\nthey&#8217;re basically taking advantage of the hardships for people who are at least\nable to afford the high fees and interest rates that are attached to those\npayday loans. So instead of trying to outlaw, I just think we should have\nbetter market competition and create better products. And that&#8217;s where\nsomething like DailyPay comes in, because now DailyPay, you can have your\nclients, the beneficiaries access to money on a daily basis, see them on a daily\nbasis.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They can access it as they earn it. And instead of going\nto a payday lender with high fees and interest rates, they can now access the\nmoney that they have earned before their paycheck. Again, it&#8217;s not outlawing\npayday lenders, but it&#8217;s now having a better product to help people have access\nto the money when they earn it to avoid having to go to payday lenders. I think\nthat&#8217;s really important. And that&#8217;s a market-based solution that doesn&#8217;t\nrequire us to go out and regulate or ban payday lenders. It&#8217;s just getting the\nword out that there are better products available for people and showing them\nthat there is a better option than a payday lender.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, that&#8217;s fantastic. Good. Very illuminating. So\nanother question here, how has society programmed many to think in certain\nways? And how can we overcome a mindset that say was conditioned on us that may\nnot favor good outcomes? Let&#8217;s just say you grew up in a household where it was\ndrilled into you to save 10% of your allowance say, but there are a lot of\nothers who did not grow up in households like that. They didn&#8217;t have that\nexperience. There was no 10% drilled in, maybe no allowance even. How do we\nhelp those that did not grow up in an atmosphere that saving money was a priority?\nHow do we help them make savings a priority?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Oh, that&#8217;s excellent. Mike, thanks for asking that\nquestion. I&#8217;ve always wanted this nature versus nurture issue. I grew up in a\nhousehold where savings was encouraged. My grandparents saved. I had a job when\nI was in high school. Some people would mow lawns, do a paper route. I worked\nconstruction, but I was always encouraged to put aside money for savings,\nwhether it was college expenses, saving early for retirement or saving for a passbook\nsavings account for Christmas money, putting aside money for gas. I was always\nencouraged to save. So in my head that was already there. But a lot of people\nweren&#8217;t brought up that way as well. And they&#8217;re now facing challenges about\nhow to change their behavior to save, how to make it easier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And part of this is not in understanding, but it&#8217;s\novercoming those psychological barriers, those hurdles that prevent us from\nsavings. And so part of this is trying to do just little things, little things\nto start creating habits. Habits are very, very powerful behavioral tools. Once\nyou get in the habit of saving, it becomes much easier, becomes more rewarding\nand you do it often. And little things, so for example, I mentioned on our\nprevious discussion about the dollar a day, there&#8217;s something called A Dollar A\nDay challenge. Challenge yourself to save just one dollar a day. If you do\nthat, all of a sudden after a year, you&#8217;ve got 350, and now you&#8217;re in the habit\nof savings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The other thing, and I guess this is the beauty of video.\nI hope no one holds it against me and makes fun of me. But again, I&#8217;m 49 years\nold. I have a 401(k) account from a previous job. I have a 403(b) account,\nwhich is the non-profit version of a 401(k) through Johns Hopkins. I have\nbrokerage accounts, but yet, Mike, I still have a piggy bank. Yes, and it&#8217;s\nfull luckily, but this is where you can put your extra change. And when I come\nhome, I stick extra change in the slot and this thing must be about five, six\npounds right now. I just haven&#8217;t had a chance to go and turn it in because of\nCOVID, but just imagine if you come home every day and that change that&#8217;s loose\nin your pocket, that you stick into this piggy bank, all of a sudden, after a\nfew months it&#8217;s full.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I don&#8217;t know, maybe there&#8217;s 20, 30, 40 bucks in here. And\npeople might say, &#8220;Well, I&#8217;m not using cash anymore. I&#8217;m using\ncredit.&#8221; There are the modern tools to do this as well, which is sort of\nwhen you go out, some banks do this now with your credit cards. They round up\nyour purchase and take that difference and put into a savings account. So if\nyou went out and bought a cup of coffee for $4 and 15 cents, they would round\nup to $5 and that 85 cents would go into a savings account for you. So with\nevery purchase, it rounds up to the nearest dollar, and that&#8217;s sort of this\nfourth savings. Now, again, you can always back out, you have to opt in doing\nthis and you can back out at any time, but that&#8217;s these little nudges we&#8217;re\ntalking about that can make a huge difference.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jason Fichtner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And again, with each little purchase, if you&#8217;re doing\nsomething on top that rounds up, over time, that really, really adds up. And\nit&#8217;s these little things that can make a difference. And again, DailyPay has\nthree options to save as well. There&#8217;s the auto save, the direct save, and the\nroundup save. And the roundup save is similar to something like Bank of\nAmerica&#8217;s credit card roundup. These little things make a huge difference and\nthey create these habits of savings that over time, literally really add up to\nthousands of dollars. That&#8217;s how we can help encourage a new culture of savings\nand do little things to overcome the psychological barriers that seem so hard\nabout planning for retirement.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, I think that about wraps it up. This was a fantastic\ndiscussion and I want to thank you, Professor Fichtner for enlightening me and\nus on the opportunities we now have to look at our financial issues and weigh\nthem properly to make good decisions for our future. So thank you again for\njoining us today. And listeners, I want to thank you for joining us today on\nThe Source, which is sponsored by DailyPay, where you can get information and\nanalysis of developments related to pay experiences. You can subscribe to The\nSource by DailyPay at dailypay.com\/podcasts. That&#8217;s dailypay.com\/podcasts. And\nour podcasts are available as well on Apple, Spotify, and Google podcast\nplatforms.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Michael Baer:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I tell you now, stay healthy and safe and keep an eye\non your emails as we will have another compelling issue along with updates very\nsoon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Speaker 1:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thanks for attending The Source, brought to you by\nDailyPay. Join us again next month for up-to-date insight on on-demand pay and\npay experiences. Keep an eye on your inbox for more information regarding\nfeatured guests and new topics.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Professor Jason Fichtner, a fellow at the Bipartisan Policy Center, and a Johns Hopkins senior lecturer, explains the thought processes of how people interact &#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":32,"featured_media":11307,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"inline_featured_image":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[299],"tags":[618,615,186,613,390,614,60,391],"class_list":["post-11282","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-podcasts","tag-benefits","tag-executive","tag-financial-wellness","tag-hr","tag-money-management","tag-operations","tag-payroll","tag-saving-money"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v27.2 (Yoast SEO v27.2) 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